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Peter's avatar

Lord, it's like reading a hysterically passionate defense of antacids.

I'm a peer worker, and I’m supposed to believe people’s lived experiences, but even I find this stretches belief beyond all credulity. You're talking about the weakest class of psychiatric medication, and your argument rests on reports from the masses of people who crowd doctors offices with common complaints.

Since your entire argument rests on elevating personal anecdotes to the level of detailed case histories, I’ll meet you on the same level:

I don’t know any doctors I respect who believe SSRIs are effective for serious depression. (Sorry Roland)

I don’t know anyone with a clear-cut depressive illness with vegetative features who has benefited from an SSRI.

If we look at the history of primary care, it’s not the birthplace of great ideas. Freud practiced his theories on the wealthy unwell, and family clinicians for centuries swore by bloodletting and purging. We know ECT works because people with melancholia rise like Lazarus. Your demoralized patient sitting a little nervously in the waiting room chair isn’t a proper equivalent to a catatonic person waking up in front of you after lorazepam.

And why, of all drugs, do people rush to defend SSRIs so passionately? (I assume we're not passionately defending imipramine, that would just be too much to ask) Where were all the voices when Moncrieff attacked lithium? Why does Prozac get these long-winded polemics when treatments like lithium, ECT, and benzodiazepines are left to rot? Yes, let’s focus on Prozac when less than half of people with bipolar are even trialed on lithium. I don’t think I go a week without hearing about Lazarus-like recoveries from one of those three treatments. ECT? Sure, heard it many times, another one just last week. Benzos? Absolutely, just don't go bananas. Lithium? People take too much when depressed, but I don’t hear horror stories and I see people get well and stay well. SSRIs? Sure, half of everyone I know takes them, from friends who are totally well to friends who are neurotic. The neurotics swear they work, but they swear everything works, and they swear they have every illness, so it’s impossible to keep up.

Who are these melancholics you’re rescuing with Prozac? Where are they? Name one expert on melancholia who praises SSRIs. I’ve never heard of a serious doctor in acute care using SSRIs for melancholia (except Roland apparently). No academic psychiatrist praises their use. Name one. I’d love to speak to them. I get your argument: they're in an ivory tower, unable to see the work-a-day doctors treating all these gravely ill people with Prozac. Those same work-a-day doctors who can't even tell in their five-minute appointments when Prozac is making a patient agitated, irritable, or impotent. Yes, those doctors primary care doctors, who spend hours taking detailed notes from patients, interviewing family members, and filling volumes of case histories that clearly show the dramatic efficacy of Prozac. Oh, please. You know, many years ago when I was a wee young lad I had a doctors appointment that lasted an entire quarter of an hour. The things he must have learnt in such a time as that, an entire fifteen minutes, well I'm sure they would fill all the medical textbooks of the world.

The reality is: you see the doctor for five minutes, say “I’ve been feeling anxious and depressed,” they give you Zoloft, you take it for two months, it makes it so your dick doesn’t move, you stop taking it, and your doctor has no idea. But they go on thinking they’re doing a wonderful job. Maybe it’s you who needs to come down from the ivory tower. It’s as absurd as not understanding the effects of alcohol. Take one, just take one, and tell me that’s not more or less the experience. I don’t buy the "your mileage may vary" stuff. I'm like you, I accept the reasonable evidence of peoples eyes. Some people are happy drunks, some people are sad drunks, but how much does the mileage really vary? Heroin users give pretty accurate accounts, and yet Prozac’s effects are a mystery? Here's what I think, most people take it, and it does pretty much what I just said, but they never bother telling their doctor. A fairly large number of nervous people take it and swear they feel better—same people who last week told me they have ADHD and Adderall makes them feel better, the same people who tell me about their joint pain, upset stomachs, and how they’re neurodivergent and no one believes them about their back pain. I’m not meant to be saying this, but I just don’t care anymore. I know too many people like this and they are so unhealthy from the medical system. It’s not an uncommon personality type. We all know people like this, and most of them are on some pill or another. Frankly, they’d probably feel better on anything. Multiply that out, and you get a pretty good theory about why these drugs have caught on.

I would suggest the reason SSRIs are so popular is because they don’t do a whole lot, which is absolutely perfect for people who don’t have much wrong to begin with.

The only reason you can give is that millions swear by them. Suddenly there are all these melancholics at death’s door, and Prozac 100% did the trick did it? And everyone was too stupid to notice all these gravely ill people for centuries? We only started noticing once we started giving Prozac to people? Jeez, how about that?

Here is my challenge: I don’t want to see any more RCTs. Just give me a case series—three or four full case histories. I want to see a detailed history of the course of illness, detailed psychopathology demonstrating the existence of a serious form of depression, regular detailed follow-ups, and extensive interviews with close family members, friends, and work colleagues. I want to see the long-term outcome. I want you to buy a cot and sleep in the corridor outside the patients’ bedrooms for, say, a month each. Maybe try having sex with them. If you can show me those things, I’ll relent—no RCTs required. I’m perfectly happy to accept careful, detailed empirical observations. I’m pretty sure the lions share of the observations you’re talking about are careless five-minute med checks.

Those are my anecdotal thoughts. Now, should we have antidepressants? Yeah, doctors need options. I don't know, some people have this kind of rumination thing that, they take an SSRI and they don't have as many thoughts, that's my anecdote. Useful. Sure. Sorry to be an arsehole about it, I just can't understand how recreational drug users can describe drug effect in the most vivid detail and psychiatrists can't even describe the most simple effects. I don't like Moncrieff much but when she describes the effects of SSRIs, it just jibes with reality and the straight forward descriptions I hear most people give. My only critique is that she conveniently forgets a whole bunch of other effects. Including some, which may be of some benefit.

Anyway, it's fun speculating and living in an evidentiary vacuum, we can all come up with the wildest opinions.

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Ronald W. Pies's avatar

Hi, Dr. Beech,

We have not met, but my friend and colleague, Dr. Mark Ruffalo, sent me the link to your posting. There is far too much to say on this topic for a brief space like this, but I did want to commend you for so many of the points you make. Most are very closely aligned with what I have been banging on about for nearly 40 years!

I particularly agree with your valuation and affirmation of the clinician's and the patient's felt experience with antidepressant medication. Thousands of us who have had the privilege of working with desperately ill and suffering depressed patients have seen, over many years, the benefits of these medications. (And yes--we are well aware of the important downsides, risks and potential side effects--nearly all of which can be mitigated and managed with expert care). Furthermore, in my view, there has been far too little emphasis on "quality of life" and too much focus on the Hamilton Depression Scale, in assessing the benefits of antidepressants. [1]

Much more could be said, but I simply wanted to register my agreement with the essence of your article. My own views are well-registered on the Psychiatric Times website, including my most recent posting, much of which resonates with yours.

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/the-ongoing-movement-against-psychiatric-medications

Best regards,

Ron

Ronald W. Pies, MD

Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry

SUNY Upstate Medical University

1. Pies RW. Antidepressants, the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale Conundrum, and Quality of Life. J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2020 Jul/Aug;40(4):339-341. doi: 10.1097/JCP.0000000000001221. PMID: 32644322.

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